This essay, CONTACT WITH CARL SAGAN ON THE FLIPSIDE is in honor of the 25th anniversary of the film “CONTACT.”

Carl Sagan (Wikimedia)


‘No Aliens, No Spaceships, No Invasion of Earth’ An oral history of Contact, the sci-fi movie that defied Hollywood norms and made it big anyway.

By Rachel Handler — June 29, 2022

The article about the history of the film CONTACT begins this way:

Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan — a world-famous astronomer and a former creative director at NASA, respectively — could never have anticipated the bliss and chaos that lay ahead when, sitting by a pool one night in Los Angeles in the late 1970s, they decided to co-write a movie about a “spiky” female scientist journeying to the center of the cosmos. What would it look like if we made definitive contact with aliens, they wondered, but only one person experienced it? It took Sagan, Druyan, and a litany of writers, producers, and directors nearly two decades to answer the question. Much like humanity’s interminable search to find intelligent life beyond Earth, the quest to make Contact was marked by heartbreak, hubris, meddling suits, and moments of sublime.

The problems were myriad. At the time, Hollywood was accustomed to journeymen and this was a story about a woman embarking on an intergalactic odyssey while her male counterpart stayed at home. Nearly every screenwriter and filmmaker who tried a hand at Contact’s script fumbled to make the lead character, Ellie Arroway, relatable to male studio executives. There were the film’s aliens, who didn’t kill anyone and didn’t possess any weird body parts like the otherworldly beings of most contemporary sci-fi films to that point. But somehow, rewrite after rewrite, Contact survived despite a hostile atmosphere and several failed attempts at liftoff, a bit dented in places but not destroyed. It finally touched down in movie theaters on July 11, 1997, with director Robert Zemeckis at the helm, Jodie Foster as its headstrong lead, and Matthew McConaughey as a studly Christian philosopher. Tragically, by the time Sagan and Druyan’s long-cherished dream had manifested, he wasn’t around to witness it.”


Having been filming people accessing the afterlife for the past dozen years or so, working with mediums who work with law enforcement on missing person cases, helping people to access loved ones off the planet via hypnotherapy, mediumship and meditation — I beg to differ.

Carl was “around” to witness the film.

Because the data, research and footage reveals that people don’t die. They don’t reportedly transform into cosmic energy or a pool of consciousness either. Their conscious energy “returns home.”

Based on thousands of case studies and reports (Dr. Helen Wambach, Dr. Brian Weiss, Michael Newton and the Newton Institute), based on science from the UVA Medical school that demonstrates consciousness is not confined to the brain (Dr. Greyson’s AFTER, Dr. Tucker’s BEFORE, Ed and Emily Kelly PhD’s IRREDUCIBLE MIND and CONSCIOUSNESS UNBOUND) as well as neuroscientist Dr. Mario Beauregard’s recent EXPANDING REALITY, or the books by Neurobiologist David Presti PHD, MIND BEYOND BRAIN). We have ample evidence that consciousness is not confined to the brain. 
As Dr. Greyson puts it in “After” “we can get objective data from subjective reports.” If the results and consistent and reproducible, they become data.

For the past decade I’ve been filming people accessing the flipside — learning new information from loved ones, relatives, strangers — it cannot be cryptomnesia if the information is new — and putting that into my documentaries FLIPSIDE and HACKING THE AFTERLIFE. ( and

After over 100 sessions, half without hypnosis, scanning hundreds of hours of footage, recordings — It’s not my opinion, theory or belief that people say the same things about the process or journey. So when this article came out, I tweeted the very talented producer of the film, (Lynda Obst) who is mentioned in the article.

Fantastic film. Accurate in terms of flipside research, data. We’ve had contact with Carl multiple times via a medium who works with law enforcement agencies. It’s a 2 way street. Includes how consciousness functions.”

The Producer replied, “Evidence please! As Carl would have required. And since that’s impossible, I remain honored and dubious.”

I replied that I have been filming the identical information for about twelve years now — and to put it simply, we’ve “had CONTACT” with Carl on the Flipside.

Ms. Obst replied: “I would be surprised (to say the least) that Carl, who didn’t believe in an afterlife AT ALL, would contact your group and not Annie or the rest of his family.”

So this article is a response to that observation.

The data, research and footage of chatting with someone I didn’t know, never met, but greatly admired.

I agree that it is a surprise. But not for the reasons stated above. Because having been filming people accessing loved ones on the flipside for over ten years, I’ve learned that it has zero to do with hierarchy, nothing to do with familial ties, little to do with what we perceive as “reasons to connect.” The only thing that allows us to access them, or not access them is the ability to do so based upon filters.

Based on the data, research and science out of UVA Medical school DOPS, “The brain functions as a receiver.” As Dr. Bruce Greyson notes in his YouTube talk (from 2011) “Is Consciousness Produced by the Brain?” the consensus among “post materialist scientists” is that the brain functions as a receiver. In his book AFTER (published last year) he has a chapter on “filters on the brain” which he refers to in his YouTube talk as well.

Dr. Helen Wambach, a clinical psychologist doing research into past life regression in the 1970’s, also mentions the “filters on the brain.” Both Dr. Wambach and Dr. Greyson use the same sentence to describe them; “It appears as if the brain blocks information not conducive to survival.”

In a recent interview with Harvard Neuroscientist Akila Weerasekera, we discussed these “filters on the brain” and discussed where they might be. (Akila was one of the winners of the Bigelow Prize for research that demonstrates there is an afterlife.) That interview will be in an upcoming book, but in general, “the scientist who discovers where the filters are on the brain, and how they can be altered or bypassed, will win a Nobel.” Akila is currently examining where they exist in the brain.

What shows up consistently in the research is the concept that we all have filters on the brain.

Some children up to the age of 8 have them (when the skull hardens) where they see, hear or otherwise communicate information they shouldn’t be aware of (“I was your father in a previous lifetime” or “I see grandpa!”) As Dr Greyson points out in his YouTube talk, “over 70% of the hospice care workers with dementia patients report a full recovery just prior to passing.” A few minutes, sometimes hours or days prior to passing, they recover their memory fully. As Greyson notes, “the post mortem autopsies shows the brains had atrophied, so they shouldn’t have been able to remember anything, yet they do.” It’s as if there’s a mechanism on the brain that “fails” with the dying brain.

In terms of bypassing the filters, I’ve been filming people accessing this information for over a decade. 100’s of hypnotherapy sessions (half without any hypnosis, just guided meditation) and everyone reports the same hallmarks. Everyone can recall previous lifetimes or learn new information from people no longer on the planet, which could not be cryptomnesia.

In terms of a dataset, I’m aware that’s an unusual statistic. No one could not access this information. That means that it would be “paranormal” or “abnormal” to suggest that people cannot.

But that leads me into a conversation with Carl Sagan.

I was in the midst of my third book “It’s a Wonderful Afterlife” a medium who works with law enforcement ( reached out to me. I spent three hours in her office filming her access people I knew were off the planet, answering questions only they could know. (On film, “Talking to Bill Paxton” is on Gaia, where my old friend answers the same questions identically through three different mediums, and in one instance, I didn’t ask the questions, someone else did.)

I’ve been filming my conversations with the medium Jennifer Shaffer weekly for seven years. This past year we decided to put the conversations on YouTube, or in our podcast

The first time Carl showed up was at my request.

After years of working with Jennifer, I realized that having a medium ask questions to the flipside was much like having a cellphone. I could either think of who I wanted to interview, do some preliminary research, and then upon meeting her for lunch, she would say “so and so is here” and it would be the person I had thought of — but had told no one. Or in some instances, people would “appear” in my home — I didn’t see them, but could clearly “hear” their iconic voices — and I would say “Hang on, I’m not the person you want to speak with; it’s Jennifer. If you want to speak to us, show up for our meeting.”

And again — as we sat down to do the interview she would name the person I had “heard” in my home. Literally say their name. “So and so is here.” Mind bending, but on camera.

In this first excerpt, I decided to invite “four atheists.” As noted elsewhere in this book “Backstage Pass to the Flipside” (book one) we interview my old friend Harry Dean Stanton who was a notorious skeptic. Very vocal about his atheism, and many can recall late nights with Harry at Dana Tana’s hearing him talk about there being “no afterlife.” So when he passed, I thought he’d be a good interview.

That footage is in the film “Hacking the Afterlife.” I won’t repeat it here, but after giving private messages about health to his pals at his memorial (they were flabbergasted as only Harry could have known about them from the flipside), he told me to tell them “Believe in the possibility of an afterlife, so then you won’t waste another minute of your life arguing about it like I did.”

That is also key to this article.

Because Carl was convinced beyond a shadow of doubt there was no afterlife. And for “a long time” he reports, “He wasn’t aware there was one.”

I’ll let him speak. This transcript is from the filmed interview with Jennifer Shaffer, and is Chapter Twenty in the book “BACKSTAGE PASS TO THE FLIPSIDE 3.” I refer to Luana, that would be Luana Anders, my friend who died in my arms in 1996, an actress in many films, who facilitates our conversations with the flipside. It was Tom Petty who said “You have no idea how hard it is to speak to you guys. Your friend Luana has the guest list, like someone at the VIP door backstage.”

(Note: I met Contact film director Bob Zemeckis at a funeral of a mutual friend where I spoke to him about the Flipside (a skeptic), met Jodie Foster about appearing in my film “Limit Up” in 1989 (not her cup of tea, loved her in Contact) and was a fan of Carl’s work. I try to not let my conscious awareness of someone change my questions to them about their experiences on the flipside.)


Backstage Pass to the Flipside 3

Homina Publishing 2020. Copyright Richard Martini. All Rights Reserved. Excerpted with permission.

Chapter Twenty CARL SAGAN

“Another trip to the flipside. This is from November 2018. I asked for three people out loud prior to arriving at Jennifer’s office. That is — driving along the coast highway, looking out over the Pacific and these three individuals, I just say their names aloud.

(Note: Apologies to astrophysicists everywhere. While I took a class in astronomy at Boston University, it’s clearly not my field. I’m a filmmaker, my questions are based on a layman’s view of the cosmos.)

My questions to Jennifer are in italics, her replies in bold.

Rich: OK, someone I have on my list. This person was famous for not being a believer in “the flipside.”

Jennifer: Stephen Hawking?

(Ding!) I asked Stephen to show up to help this other guy come forward. That’s funny and freakin’ uncanny. Luana you know who I’m talking about. I called out his name this morning as I drove here.

Is his name Carl?

Yes. Carl Sagan. Wow. You get more brilliant as we go along. Carl. Can we ask you some questions?

(Jennifer aside) I saw him in a museum once.

Can we talk to him?

Yes. He showed me Hawking, and how he put him in his lap and they just went flying.

(Note: To those coming upon this report for the first time, it would seem fanciful to hear that Carl would have sat on Hawking. However, as she does with law enforcement daily (a third of her work is pro bono) she reports exactly what she sees. She saw these two august scientists being playful.)

Stephen has spoken to us before.. Carl you were famous for being an atheist — anything you want to tell us about the flipside? What was it like for you crossing over?

He showed me walking by himself..

Where? By the beach? In the sky?

He’s saying whatever he thought of it would magically appear; it’s like having a green screen and you would walk and you think of the ocean or the woods — and they would appear. And he felt like he was there, walking beside a forest on near the ocean.

Was anyone there to greet you? Or where you by yourself?

Interesting. He said nobody could greet him until he came to terms with believing (he was on the flipside.)

How long did that take? Was it a long time before you could believe you were on the Flipside?

Yeah. I don’t know how long he’s been gone — could have been 9 months, 9 years, it wasn’t instantaneous.

(Note: Carl Sagan died in 1996. This interview was conducted decades later. This is common in the reports — either via someone using hypnotherapy to access a previous crossing from a lifetime, with someone using meditation to access the same information, or with a person speaking to a medium, who is asked “what was it like when you cross over?” Some report a “hard landing” — not knowing where they are, others report a “soft landing” where someone on the other side brings them along gently, or they are greeted by beloved pets and realize that they still exist, albeit elsewhere.)

Who was the first person you finally did communicate with or see over there.. was it a guide? Someone we know?

So why am I being shown Queen Elizabeth?

Don’t judge it… that was your first… Carl?

Someone is either projecting their thoughts…

You mean she snuck in here? You mean Elizabeth the Queen of England? Carl is that who you saw?

Jennifer nods.

(Note: Having been doing this for years with Jennifer, as well as examining thousands of case studies about what people saw or heard, including during near death events (NDE’s) people sometimes see someone who is still alive, still on the planet. What is reported consistently is that we “bring a portion of our conscious energy to a lifetime and the rest “stays home.” (Home is the word everyone uses for the afterlife in the research — not heaven — not a religious term. Home. So it doesn’t bother me that he is seeing someone that he knows, has met, and is friends with, despite her “title and rank.” We’ve had numerous conversations with all kinds of people who are considered “celebrities” — they aren’t back home. They’re “just light.”)

We can unpack this — I get that it could be a joke. So the first person you saw was the Queen; was she wearing a crown?

He says, “No. She looked old.”

What was she wearing?

“Just a frumpy outfit.”

Did you recognize her as the Queen? You probably met her before.

“Yes,” he said.

So did Hawking?


(Note: Queen Elizabeth met Stephen Hawking during a reception for Leonard Cheshire Disability charity at St James’s Palace in London on May 29, 2014. In 1983, Presented to Queen Elizabeth II by Carl Sagan (NASA) and Ann Druyan during her visit to the United States of America in 1983 presented her a photo of Saturn from the Voyager craft. New information; I had no clue they’d met.)

This image presented to Queen Elizabeth by Carl and Ann

Were you talking to her higher self or someone in disguise?

He says, “Her higher self.”

We’re familiar with that concept.

She actually took his hand and started walking with him.

Carl, how did she help you realize you were in the afterlife or that there was an afterlife?

Jennifer listens.

(Aside) “Thank you..” He says, “She showed him that she was still down there (on earth) — like an aerial view, “I’m here, but I’m still there.”

Interesting. Talk to us about you about the space craft Voyager and the metal record you sent into space. Do you pay attention to it, or it doesn’t affect you at all, (because) you’re busy?

He says “It’s boring out there.”

(Note: That’s not a pejorative. People on the flipside do not lose their sense of humor. He knows that saying “it’s boring in deep space” will elicit a reaction. But it sets up his point.)

Wait, you’re saying the concept of billions and billions of light years away is boring?

He says, “The way that we know it — yes. Present time; to feel things… in order to feel things you have to be present.”

Here? Okay. In terms of being over there who have you met or seen since Queen Elizabeth?

Jennifer laughs.

He said “Billy Idol.”

Well, he’s still on the planet.

(Jennifer aside) I know! I guess the Queen’s showing up didn’t work so then he had to show up.

Carl what do you want to tell your friends and fans, still thinking about you?

He says “Tell them to stop wasting time doing what he did.”

Arguing about the afterlife?

“It’s so pointless.”

Well how can we help them?

“It’s paradise over here.”

How can we help them know that?

He says, “We can’t.”

So these books (“Backstage Pass to the Flipside has three, Tuning into the Afterlife is the fourth with Jennifer) are not helping? These books are a waste of time Carl, “Mr. Blue Dot?”

(Note: I’ve shed tears reading his quote about the pale blue dot. I like to ask irreverent comments, or keep them light, as it allows us to go beyond the obvious conundrum of how we can actually speak to each other. No disrespect intended or meant by my calling him that. And when Jennifer says “They’re all laughing,” she’s referring to our classroom which observes our conversations.)

(Jennifer aside) They’re all laughing.

He says, “No! The books are timeless, people can come or go and think what they’ll think and they’ll find them — like if I had come across “Flipside” in my 20’s I wouldn’t have been ready for it, but coming across it at Thanksgiving (a few years back) was the perfect time for it.

By the way, I’d like to compliment you for the concept of a pale blue dot. The poetry of those words is now in the lexicon.

That’s what he was showing me, like walking and having it be like on a green screen… he’s saying “Whatever your imagination takes you is where you are, whatever you believe in, is correct. And the universe can’t interfere.” I was asking him “but can you interfere?” and he said “You can interfere. That’s why Queen Elizabeth showed up.”

Somebody that really impressed him that helped challenge his belief or perspective?

He says, “It’s like the science idea that when a ship appears to Native Americans, Columbus ships appearing to people who’ve never seen a ship before, they can’t see because they’ve can’t comprehend it.”

(Note: The following is part of the reason I do this research. The concept is, ask people who knew scientists to do experiments where they ask the same questions to them, especially about climate change. And by doing so, even if the idea for change comes from their subconscious, or comes from their mentor, the result is the same.)

Carl, can you give us any advice on how to save the planet?

He says, “Stop using all the water.”

Stop polluting all the water?

He says, “All of it; stop cutting down trees. Stop eliminating the Earth.”

Thank you. Is there anything else you want to impart to your fans and friends Carl? Because they’re going to be very upset to hear me claim that you still exist; they are convinced that you can not still exist.

“Yes,” he says. “Tell them that he still exists. Through the writings. Through the footage. Through his voice.” He says, “It’s like that movie “Coco.” As long as you still remember him he still stays alive.”




As usual, we begin our session with me either mentioning who I invited to the session, or letting Jennifer “guess” who I invited. Sometimes she says it on the first try, sometimes it takes three different images. It’s a bit of a guessing game for our friends on the flipside as well, as they project the images that lead to the name of the person who’s standing by to be interviewed. My questions are in italics, Jennifer Shaffer replies in bold.

Rich: Okay on to our Flipside All Star science panel — I invited four people today… Albert Einstein, I don’t think we’ve talked to him –

Jennifer: I’m also seeing the guy with the wheelchair.

Stephen Hawking.

I forget that he doesn’t need the wheelchair now, I saw him in the wheelchair and then out of it. He has bright eyes.

(Note: In our interview with Stephen I asked about the scope of his life — why he chose a difficult lifetime to navigate. He said that he chose this lifetime so that it was more contemplative — being in the wheelchair forced him to focus on the research. I asked him if he’d “seen a black hole” since being off planet, and he said “Many.” I asked him if the hole itself was like a wormhole or a portal, he said “Yes, but not in the way that you think so.” I asked if he had “seen any aliens” and his response was “we are all aliens. Since we choose to incarnate from elsewhere, everyone on the planet is an alien. Humans have to get past those labels.” This is a bit different, instead of making Jennifer guess whom I’ve invited, I start off by asking for them to come forward, as we’ve interviewed them all in the past.)

I asked for four people whose life stories I’m aware of — Nikola Tesla, Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein. I want you all to weigh in on a question I have.

I just saw the Amazon forest.

Okay, that would be a question to ask, and maybe the answer is related… my question to our panel is “What is dark matter and dark energy?” They say that 70% of the Universe is some matter they don’t know what it is, which is why they call it dark, and another 25% is energy they can’t identify.

So I’m going to start with Albert “What is dark matter and dark energy?” Whoever wants to speak first.

“WOW!” I wish I had a pencil… he showed me like.. two.. it’s so important I don’t want to get it wrong, I’m seeing two holograms, one black one white. What he’s saying is.. “It’s the energy of yourself outside of yourself.”

Energy of yourself outside of yourself — or in the absence of yourself?

He says, “Like a boomerang.”

Why are you showing her light and dark matter? Is that like the symbol for yin and yang?

He says, “Yes.”

So is dark matter the opposite of matter? Which is to say, not anti-matter as a think, but the opposite of matter represents?

“The opposite of,” he says.

So it’s both at the same time, is that what you’re saying?


(Note: From what I’m seeing as she’s speaking is the physical aspect of an object, a light for example, and then the absence of that light after it’s gone out or left — as if a halo was left behind, or an etheric image of it. Perhaps easiest to think of a forest of trees, and then they are not there, but their energy of their existence remains. I am also led to a memory, after the big quake in Los Angeles, some buildings took years to repair. And one day I was walking past a restaurant that was closed, boarded up — but it was a place that Luana and I had breakfast a number of times.

And as I walked past it, I had the sensation of “hearing it” — and seeing everyone in that space from when it occurred years earlier. Which leads me to a moment when my wife Sherry was walking through Washington Heights and turned a corner and saw a large party of people in costume. They did not see her, but she saw them, and then a few seconds later realized she had not seen them. They were not “ghosts” per se — or perhaps that is the right term, but she had seen this entire crowd of people having a party, they were all outside and enjoying a summer night.

Which then leads me to the stories told by Arthur C Clarke where people had claimed that they had witnessed events that no longer existed. A group of people at Versailles who thought they were seeing a reenactment (that wasn’t occurring) a group of people at Gettysburg who saw a group of soldiers marching in formation — thought they were seeing a civil war reenactment (which didn’t exist) two women who found a hotel in Paris in a rainstorm, but forgot a suitcase, the next day went back to reclaim the bag and were told the hotel had “burned down during the war.”

I also heard a story of a woman whose daughter had wandered away from her camp for children with autism, and was found in a restaurant. A waitress had called the mom, who had driven through a storm to pick up her daughter, and then later, when calling the restaurant, discovered it had burned down decades earlier and did not exist. Only it did exist — in a holographic manner. Not on the flipside per se, but somehow continued to exist in time and space.)

The words I’m using to describe what you’re saying are incorrect, I get that.

(Jennifer aside) It’s going so fast what they’re showing me –

Slow it down guys.

They’re showing me trees and then the trees that are getting taken, it’s creating more of that black hole more of that black matter or… the dark matter. That’s where the trees were…

(Note: Perhaps like having a “phantom limb” — someone loses an arm, but they can still experience the energetic blueprint of that arm through their sensory system. “A phantom limb is the sensation that an amputated or missing limb is still attached. … Phantom sensations may also occur after the removal of body parts other than the limbs, e.g. after amputation of the breast, extraction of a tooth (phantom tooth pain) or removal of an eye (phantom eye syndrome).

Rich: But in order to clarify — as an example, visually, imagine a forest of trees and then they’re gone; the dark matter is the energy that is left behind of the trees who were once there?

Jennifer: He says, “Correct.” It feels like the trees that are not there, create the dark energy.

So you’re saying the absence of energy is dark energy — it’s not the opposite of it, not that it’s the negative of it, but the absence of it creates a left-over imprint of hologram of its energy. To paraphrase, “The absence of an object retains the qualities of the object?

He says, “Yes.”

Let’s go down the row. To you Mr. Hawking. Stephen — what’s dark energy and dark matter?

He’s showing me a chalk board — he’s drawing the letter “M” ….

Okay. Matter…

“Then… negative pi squared.”

(Note: Never heard Jennifer use this visual before. I have no clue if he’s kidding, or actually writing it out for some physicist who stumbles upon this chapter.)

Let me repeat — “M and then a left hand parenthesis…?”

“And inside the parenthesis is negative point pi squared.”

Okay, and then?

He’s not done. “Then a right parenthesis, then times…” (Jennifer aside) What does the symbol for infinity look like?

The number 8 on its side?

He said, “Yes.”

So he’s writing M (-.Pi2rd) x (infinity) Is this correct?


Can we restate it?


Which is matter? Is equal to..?

No. “M,” then “parenthesis then negative point pi squared…”

Then a closed parenthesis times x — times the infinity symbol?

He says, “Yes.”

That equals dark matter? Dark matter and dark energy — they think dark matter is 70% of the universe…

He says, “It’s the absence of energy.”

(Note: Having studied Tibetan philosophy with Robert Thurman at Columbia, and reading the works of Tsong Khapa, I’m reminded of the Tibetan description of “emptiness.” The absence of a thing, or the dissolution of the thing, but the energy of it still in existence.)

Stephen hold that thought for a second. Down the row to Carl Sagan our scientist poet. How would you define dark energy or what is dark energy and dark matter?

He’s writing. Hold on. Um. He says, “It’s light photosynthesis… buried within our electromagnetic field…” (Jennifer aside) Argh… trying to get this right. He says, “The electromagnetic field causes all of us (to be) where we’re supposed to be…”

The electromagnetic field causes everything to exist within it?

(Jennifer pauses, takes a sip of water.) He told me to take a sip because now my brain is fritzing. (To Carl) Show me again on the chalkboard? (To me) It would be nice to have a pen and piece of paper! (Jennifer listens) They just said “I don’t need paper, it’s a crutch…”

Just draw it out on camera — Carl’s answer is that “The light is using photosynthesis…?”

“Light..” (Jennifer aside) Wait. He’s saying “It’s not photosynthesis, but photo kinesis… not photosynthesis… light photo kinesis…

(Note: defined by wikipedia; Photo kinesis is the ability to mentally control light, electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye and is emitted and absorbed in tiny “packets” called photons. In common with all types of EMR, it exhibits properties of both waves and particles. This property is referred to as the wave-particle duality. In physiology, it’s movement (kinesis) with response to light. I can verify that this is not a concept that Jennifer has spoken of previously, but I do know that her daughter aspires to be an astrophysicist, and that her father on the flipside attends an “astrophysics class” that is beyond mind bending.)

Carl, do you mean the energy of the light?

He says, “Yes.”

Could it be the etheric properties or energy of the light?

“Yes. Yes. Yes!,” he says. “It’s an invisible shield.” (Jennifer aside) What I’m seeing now is, you know… when they have light, when they shimmer?

Is he saying “It’s related to that — the energy of light?”

Hold on. He says, “Yes. That energy field is in our electromagnetic field…” He says it again, “Yes.”…. (long pause)

Carl, take a deep breath.

(Jennifer aside) I saw that light that’s infusing our energy field… and then I saw the opposite which is out there.

Allow me to clarify. Carl is giving an illustration of something like this; “Think of light and what light is and the opposite of it, or the absence of it” and that’s what dark energy is?

He says, “Yes. Dark energy that’s not dark.”

Let me ask this; is dark energy observable from the flipside? Or can they see dark matter?

(Jennifer reacts in shock.) That’s … (aside) Oh, I’m so afraid of getting this wrong. What he showed me… is… and I see this every day in my work, where when I’m accessing things from the etheric field, I’m seeing the outlines of people, coming and talking to me or talking to you…

(Note: Jennifer and I have discussed this often. Her filters are altered in such a way that she can hear, see, smell things on the flipside. When an individual appears in her field of vision, she sees an outline of them. She can see through them, but also can see them individually.)

The outlines of people etherically?

Yes. When I see the etheric — I was given this gift of seeing spirit, they showed me that, the absence of being here (in this realm) is what I’m seeing… So I asked him “So where do the souls go?” and they’re telling me … “It’s the absence of them that is dark energy.”

But hang on — is dark matter and energy part of their physical realm, or is it only here, something that makes up our physical realm? Or is it both here and there?

He says, “Over there (on the flipside) is like the largest computer system conceivable.”

Carl, what you’re saying is, correct me if I’m wrong; that dark matter and energy are the essence of what souls are, what we’re talking about is how they exist and yet don’t exist?

He says, “Yeah. No.”

Tell me Carl. Yes and no?

He says, “It’s the abstract of our human brain waves.”

You mean it’s related to what consciousness is?

He says, “Correct.”

So if it’s accurate that consciousness is not a thing per se, but refers to a medium or a vehicle — the way water is — then dark matter is a vehicle more like an engine than a thing.

He says, “That’s what they’ve been trying to tell us.”

Okay, on down the row to Nikola Tesla.

(Note: Like many writers in Hollywood I have my own Nikola Tesla screenplay about his life and journey, I’m familiar with his work and life time more than the others present. At one point PBS discussed making my film, Oliver Stone said he’d read it, but it never got beyond the script stage.)

We’ve chatted with Nikola before, and I know that you like to design things with your mind… You would draw things mentally and then when they functioned correctly in your mind, you’d put them into blueprints so others could see what you’d already proven in your mind.

So Nikola, give us your best answer; what is dark energy and matter made up of?

(Jennifer aside) He’s so short! He’s like the size of Napoleon.

I didn’t know that. But please; explain what dark matter is. How does dark matter affect us? What is it?

He’s showing me something with heaviness… wait..

You mean gravitational weight?

He says, “Yes.”

Is that what you mean by heaviness, that it has gravitational properties?

He said, “Yes.”

So it functions like gravity does, is that correct, but includes the opposite or the absence of it?

He says, “The absence of it.”

Okay, I’ve heard this — and it’s why they know that dark matter exists, because they realized that whatever dark matter is, it functions like gravity but nobody knows precisely what it is .. but if no one knows what it is…

He says, “It’s the creation of us — of what we’re doing here in this existence. It’s the creation of us, there’s so much of it, I feel like it’s a block in the pool… “

Excuse me? A block in a pool? Do you mean like a whirlpool?

He says, “It’s a block in our minds.”

So if we open ourselves up to it…

They pointed to the back of my (Jennifer’s) head… they said “The medulla… if we open that up… it’s connected to dark matter.”

(Note: The Medulla Oblongata, or the medulla, is the brain stem. “The medulla oblongata, also known as the medulla, directly controls certain ANS responses, such as heart rate, breathing, blood vessel dilation, digestion, sneezing, swallowing and vomiting. It is a portion of the brainstem, located just below the pons and just above the spinal cord.” There’s a report from Dr. Bruce Greyson at UVA that he feels as if the brain functions like a receiver, and that there are filters or limiters that prevent us from accessing other information, like PSI phenomena, or other tidbits of consciousness. (See “Is Consciousness Produced by the Brain?” on YouTube, or “Mind Beyond Brain” by David Presti PhD.)

So if we could somehow find a way to take off that filter on the Medulla, we could see dark matter? What would it look like?

They’re showing me…wow. I don’t know if you ever saw the film Twilight, but do you remember when they went outside into the sun and everything and everyone’s skin suddenly started to become iridescent and sparkle? It’s like that.

Okay, I know that visual. Almost electromagnetic?

I’m seeing like crystals everywhere.

So if we were going to see it, would it look like an electrical field?

Say their names again –

Albert, Stephen, Carl and Nick.. good baseball team. Flipside All Stars.

Wow. Everything suddenly became completely quiet. Like as if I was in a vacuum of sound. Do you remember when I told you about that time I got lost in the mountains of Sedona and couldn’t hear anything? Sound and everything suddenly disappeared… They’re showing me that’s what it would feel like … saying “It’s not what it is… but what it isn’t.”

Just to be clear, it’s not a negative thing to have the absence of energy — you could call it light matter, couldn’t you? Is that correct?

I’m hearing “There is something, an element that is negative about it.” Because I keep asking them “Is it light?” And they keep saying “No.” I’m trying not to judge it; I’m trying to find out what’s negative about it…

What do they mean? Negative? Is it a word that means bad or is about the physical charge?

They’re showing me battery symbols; positive and negative.

Okay, so it’s about the physical charge. I’ve heard that before that we live in a polarized world — it’s not that it’s just good or bad, but it’s this yin and yang existence related to the polar magnetization.

They’re saying “You need both to exist.”

So why is 95% of the dark matter not visible if we need both to exist?

They’re saying “Because it’s creating all these other universes that we can’t see.”

If we could see the flipside, what we would see is that tiny bit of matter, where we exists, is where life exists. The rest is creating other universes.

He says, “Yes. (There are) So many galaxies and so many different places.”

So dark matter is like a medium or vehicle but how does it function? Does it function in the same way?

Hold on. I’m hearing “Source is dark matter.”

Source is dark matter?

(Note: The term “source” has come up in the research before — often referring to “consciousness” or how everything is connected, and how we can “open our hearts” to experience “God.” I mention this because Carl and the others were not “believers in God” per se — but in the research, it’s been reported that the concept of God is not a religious one, or dependent upon belief.

In the book “It’s a Wonderful Afterlife” a guide was asked by a skeptic “What or who is God?” and the reply was “God is beyond the capacity of the human brain to comprehend. It’s not physically possible to do so. However you can experience God by opening your heart to everyone and all things.” If we take this sentence as a formula — not as a religious observation — but that in order to “experience God” we need to “open our heart (compassion, unconditional love) to “everyone and all things.”

Why all things? Because if all things are composed of consciousness, then “the kingdom of heaven is within” refers to consciousness. How it’s the medium, or fabric of all that exists (or in this case existed, or has the possibility to exist.) So by saying “Source is dark matter” would be another way of saying “consciousness is dark matter.”)

Rich: All right — let’s examine that for a moment… does it function the way energy works in our universe does, the laws of energy where it doesn’t dissipate but transforms into other forms? Like energy flowing into a blackhole doesn’t disappear but emerges on the other side as something else?

JENNIFER: I’m hearing, “Yes.” They’re showing me our earth — showing that when things are no longer in it, then dark matter grows, gets bigger.

Who’s showing you that?


Well thanks Nick, so if the things that are disappearing or are being destroyed is growing the amount of dark matter, you’re saying it’s a good thing the planet is being destroyed? Just trying to follow your logic my friend.

They showed me the ice ages, how the earth transforms over time, it destroys itself through natural disasters, for example….

The earth is always transforming?

I’m hearing the word “Transference.”

(Note: That’s interesting. There’s a new theory about transference as a psychology and physics principle. “An analyst and a physicist combine their disciplines in studying the transference as an interactive field. Through a description of the history and evolution of the therapeutic relationship as one moving from asymmetry to symmetry, from reductive causal interaction to acausal, synchronistic expression of meaning, we describe four levels of interaction.

To unpack the notion of interactive field we describe the physics of local, causal, classical fields and directly connect them to the therapeutic encounter of the first two levels. The second two levels require discussion of nonlocal, acausal, quantum fields. In this connection, the subtle body and joint active imagination provide a physiological and symbolic experience of the interactive field.” (From “On the physics and psychology of the transference as an interactive field” by Victor Mansfield / J. Marvin Spiegelman 1996)

Like black holes? Is dark matter going through black holes?

He says, “Correct.”

Because that’s where all the other universes are?

I’m hearing “Yes.” (Jennifer shrugs) I don’t know any of this.

Who said that answer?

They all did.

The Flipside All Stars. Anything else you guys want to tell us about this science?

“Love and have fun.”

Hang on, let’s explore that for a second. What is love in this paradigm? If you’re telling us that source is dark matter than that means love is dark matter.

I heard, “Yes. You have to love yourself; (because) you are dark matter.”

Hang on, set the concept of love aside?

I heard, “It causes wars.”

Set love aside as an emotion — focus on the physical representation of it as a thing. If unconditional love is related to source, then the Allstars are saying that dark matter is unconditional love.

Is that correct, or do you want to alter or amend that?

They’re saying “It has no judgment. It is unconditional love. Whatever you are is what you are.”

Okay. Thanks class. And thanks to our All Star scientist panel. That was amazing, and that was intense.



Jennifer and I in our usual place, me opening the class up to whomever wants to join us.

Rich: Who do we bring forward today?

Jennifer: Bill Paxton. He’s wearing a cowboy hat, has a toothpick in his mouth — wearing boots that he loves, don’t know what they’re made out of; I’m sure it’s politically incorrect… (Jennifer listens:) Snakeskin boots? Ew.

No snakes are hurt on the flipside.

He wants to say something about his son.

James; what about him?

He’s traveling or about to travel, feels like something good associated with that. Maybe you should reach out to him.

Bill I’ve reached out to your whole fam damily as best I can, and haven’t heard a peep out of them. Which is okay, who wants to reach out to some nutball who claims to speak to your beloved? I can’t blame them; I wouldn’t talk to me either.

(Note: I met Bill when both of our careers were beginning. After he passed, I had three different mediums ask him the same questions about how and where we met, only he could possibly know the answers. In one instance, I wasn’t there when the questions were asked. All three mediums hit the bullseye. He shows up often in our sessions, mainly because he’s a pal, has a sense of humor, and knew my friend Luana Anders who moderates our afterlife conversations. He’s a frequent guest.)

He says, “There’s going to be an opening. One of them is going to contact you. There will be an opening.”

Okay. So what should I tell them?

He says, “Talk about Tibet and Buddhism.”

Okay, sure. What do you want me to say? That Tibet’s a cool place to go?

He says, “Tell them it’s going to be okay, without being an asshole about it…”

(Note: This is funny and bizarre at the same time. Jennifer isn’t calling me an a**hole, my old friend Bill is. Normally I edit these kinds of private riffs out of the conversation. But I am very familiar with Buddhism, have been to Tibet, I know that meditation can cure many ills, mental difficulties, and there is something timeless and wonderful about the Tibetan form of Buddhism which examines the nature of reality. So — my answering with sarcasm only means, “I’ll do my best.”)

What’s going to be ok?

He says, “Someone is suffering…”

Do you mean like the Tibetan concept of suffering? Stuff like that?

He said, “Yeah.”

That’s the idea we go through things in life to explore them and learn from the harder things in life?

(Jennifer aside) My dad just popped in and said “Right Jen?” I get so mad about him being gone. Then Bill thanked you.

(Always makes me emotional when he shows up.) Billy; you’re always welcome. Hang loose, hang tight.

He says “The same for you; hang tight, hang loose, and he showed me a boat.”

What boat?

“That movie you’re supposed to do. About a boat.”

(Note: I have a vague idea about doing a movie about a boat — the millennium cruise I was on, where I played piano aboard Bob Shaye’s rented yacht. But this was a first, a suggestion I write a film about it.)

Hi Jim (Jennifer’s dad) We were going to ask you about Jennifer’s first experience with spirit. What can you tell her?

He showed me something I’ve heard about, that they left me in the car by accident with the windows rolled up — they forgot me in the car. And I overheated.

How old were you?

I was in a baby seat. They showed me I did die and came back. I remember not being able to breathe. I think around 2 years old.

Can you go to that moment aware you can’t breathe? Can you be there in that moment now?

Everything is so hot.

Try to cool it down in your mind, everything’s cool. Do you pass out?


So look around, who’s with you when this occurs that alerts your folks to get back to the car?

Oh. It was my great grandmother. They just forgot I was in there. I felt like I couldn’t breathe, closed my eyes, and woke up screaming. I didn’t die but I almost did. I did pass out.

When you remember that, who’s there to assist?

My great grandmother, on the other side; she holds me and says “Everything’s going to be okay,” — she did something to my heart to make me wake up crying.

Describe her to me.

She’s very beautiful, dirty blond hair, this all white outfit — sometimes I see Luana like that — like a nurse outfit but not a nurse outfit. She was very peaceful; I sense that she is like my guide.

(Note: In Luana’s last movie role, I had her playing a nurse in Point of Betrayal complete with a white outfit. Funny that she would appear now and then wearing that.)

Is she your guide, one of your guides?

Yeah. I didn’t know that.

Does this relate to Jennifer’s gift of being able to see outside her frequency?

It’s because I saw them — whoever was around. They acted like it was a party; they knew I would be okay.

Who was there at this party you’re seeing?

My family that wasn’t born yet. Interesting. The veil was so thin.

So this is your first experience with spirit?

Yes. They’re showing me they did something to my heart to make me cry. My folks told me the only reason I was alive is because I cried (and alerted them.)

Let me clarify this; it wasn’t the overheating that made her adept, you’re just showing her the first incident, and she would grow to get stronger and better at it?

They tap their nose — that’s correct.

This relates to a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago, talking to our science all stars and asking about dark matter and energy — and someone said it was related to the medulla… back of the head, said it was the access point — and I looked it up — it’s the brain stem — you pointed to where it comes up through the neck. It’s the gateway. Jim step in… and any of our scientists — how do we access source while in our body? Is it related to the medulla? The brain stem? Or the pineal gland?

It’s the pineal gland… it feels like a combustion — both have to work together. It’s like they have to not work and work together, rewired almost.

Is the pineal gland a filter? Or a limiter?

It’s an un-limiter.

So it functions like a stereo receiver?

Correct. The frequency that gets tuned in… um… the pineal gland is like… the receiver, the filter is the medulla?

Whose idea was it to make the pineal gland a receiver? A group idea?

They’re all talking at the same time. It’s kind of funny — it made sense as you would want it to be through your feet and showed me a person with their feet in the air… and your body doesn’t need to be working in order to access it.

Okay, is the pineal gland in every human being?

Everybody’s pineal gland is open but it’s like having… I hope I’m seeing this right. It’s like when you have a flat tire on your car doesn’t work — if you have too many disbeliefs, it just doesn’t work.

But let’s talk about the physiology — if the pineal gland works with medulla..

Its yin and yang.

Some kids are able to communicate freely…

All children are.

So when they can’t around the age of 8 is that because their skulls harden and their reception goes down?

Both. The skull hardens and um… it’s the disbelief and the parents, etc.

If you’re asleep does it work easier? Does that somehow affect the pineal gland?

100 thousand percent.

During sleep the medulla is quiet, but is the pineal gland is like a homing beacon?


Okay, very good — do our science all stars want to do a follow up on this dark matter issue? We went to four people and four different versions of the same answer, one gave us a formula, one gave us images, one gave us a forest and absence of a forest…

The shadow. Right.

Anything you want to tell Jennifer to continue this conversation?

They just showed me a balloon flying up.

Who’s here?

Stephen Hawking is here.

And he says “Think of a balloon?” Does he mean “a higher message?”

I’m seeing the thoughts that go up (to them on the flipside) the difference is that I have a receiver to get the thoughts to come back… (Jennifer aside:) Say it again? In the information superhighway, you’re allowed (to have) messages to flow simultaneously. Like a car.

You’re talking about the vehicle of dark matter? Is it dark matter you’re referring to?

“Yes.” Thoughts go up. That alerts the people you’re calling or would like to speak to, to be around.

You’re answering a question I was about to ask — “How does this work so Jennifer can speak to spirit?” The answer is “the questions go up, and the answer comes down?”

“It’s like being on a racetrack but much faster, I have few roadblocks and no flat tires.”

Let’s break it down — is Stephen standing or sitting?

Standing. He has these little glasses on.

Wire rim glasses?

Yes. He’s wearing a suit, and a red bowtie, a blue shirt — darker colored. Feels like a blue suit with a lighter blue… it’s something like he wore when he was 19… dusted off an old college suit.

Thank you for coming in to talk to us. Question at hand is; “How Jennifer able to communicate with you? Or how are we able to communicate with people on the other side, it’s like an information highway?

He stays “she stays in her lane.”

That you should or shouldn’t stay in your lane, or that’s just her lane?

It’s like I have my own lane but there 100 thousand cars swirling around everywhere. I can see the road, but I can see it’s a metaphor for being able to speak to spirit.

I see; she’s in the midst of all those other cars, but she has her own unique frequency that helps her?

They’re showing me how much this work strengthens the pineal gland because of it.

In terms of people who don’t have her gift.. who don’t have the ability to speak to spirit?

It’s funny he says it’s like owning a car, think of a Fiat or something, something old or beat up in the beginning, then by learning this and doing this more and more, your energy becomes more efficient and you become more like a Ferrari. (Jennifer listens:) I was asking is it like a car getting less efficient as time goes on? And they say it’s the opposite. The more you do it the more green lights you’re going to have.

I keep hearing in this research, in terms of spirit, I hear about a shift in consciousness that’s happening, and that’s why we’re on the planet at this point in time.

It’s still only the top 1%, that are even aware of it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, how can Jennifer and I help facilitate this shift? Or can we?

“Film.” Film… that’s what he’s saying.

What would you like to tell people on the planet that would convince them on some level that this actually is you talking?

He says “That it’s backed up by science.”

I heard a funny story about you the other day that Jennifer could not know the answer to this question. There was a moment in time you were on your way to a reading of a Simpson’s episode — Hank Azaria was saying on the Late Show that you had suggested to them to be on the show. You were on your way there but were running late, and one of the actors at the table read, Harry Shearer said something funny about you being late.

It has to do with time… the concept of time.

That’s correct. He said “The man has no concept of time.”

(Note: This is about as mind bending a detail as I can imagine. Jennifer did not watch the Colbert show, and then neither did Hawking. What is being referred to here is the actor Hank Azaria telling a story on Colbert where he said “The funniest adlib I ever heard was from Harry Shearer” and he told that story. Remember; Hawking was not in the room when it was said — he was running late.)

How could you be aware of that?

Jennifer: Me or him?

I know you’re getting it from him. That’s exactly what the actor Harry Shearer said.

“The man has no concept of time.”

(Me; startled) How do you know that?

He showed me how illusionary time is.

But that sentence is exactly what Harry Shearer said. “The man has no concept of time.” Tell me how Stephen put that sentence into your mind.

He showed me the word “time” and then showed me it is dissipating out into the future… that’s how he showed it to me. Disappearing into the future… He’s in my lane.

Geeze Louise, you’re riding in her car and in her lane. You’re in her frickin’ Ferrari.

He said, “She’s a Lamborghini.” He showed me the music outside as an example.

A frequency, yes; while you’re in this car together… and music retains memory of when it was performed, right? Allow me to repeat this… while you’re in this car together, A: I asked Jennifer a question she could not know the answer to; B: you could not know the answer to because you were not there when the joke was said Stephen. So how are you able to access what was said? Did someone tell that to you later on? Or are you able to access that time frame of that moment in time when it happened?

“Instantly,” he says.

Help me with this concept… I want you to help me with this question. Are we speaking about the holographic universe?

I’ll share with you the image he showed me. He showed me a disk being pulled out.

Like a DVD or CD? And each disc…

Is the Akashic record of that moment in time. That’s what I (would) refer to it as.

Like slices of time? It’s part of the Akashic record, but you are accessing slices of time? Packets of the moment in time?


These slices of time exist unto themselves, so when I ask about a particular slice of time, we can access that time together, is that correct?


You access it simultaneously… and people like Jennifer are able to as well?

I asked him while you were talking “Are you getting it (the information) out of Richard’s head?” I’m the skeptic here and he says “no” and he showed me pulling out an old floppy disk. He’s showing me tons and tons and tons of numbers and just honing in to whatever is in our lane.

So the numbers, is how the event, or how the information is stored in its frame of time?

“Like Pi, down to the (specific) numbers.”

In speaking of dark energy, we got a formula from someone — “Negative pi times infinity.” And Pi was included. Is that what dark energy is?


And you guys said the other day that dark energy is source? Are you saying that dark energy is consciousness?

“You have to.”

But if source is dark energy… that means if we’re going to access slices of holographic time…

I’m seeing everything in holograms.

So even us, here in this room — we are slices of time, but let me ask you, is this idea of accessing slices of time is that the “second coming?” Is that related to understanding this kind of information as some form of epiphany that might include the concept of “a second coming?” Not from a religious perspective, but because once we realize there is not time, we can see that Jesus never left?

Jennifer laughs. Stephen just went and got my dad. (Jim was a Mormon bishop).

That’s hilarious.


This is fascinating. One more time please. Past, present, future…

Oh, they’re showing me the outline of a human being, when we pass away, it’s like with people who have lost a limb…

Phantom limbs?

That’s dark energy, what dark energy is — phantom energy of something that once existed in that space. So when people pass away it (that space) still has that energy — that’s what I see when people come in and out (of their bodies in spirit form)

You did say that the energy field is like dark energy.

I’m so glad you’re filming this! I would never remember any of this. Hold on. I asked “How come I don’t remember what is given to me (during a session) and what I heard is that it negates being attached to it.

So psychologically it’s a good thing — otherwise you’d be associated with every murder you’ve solved. Let’s talk about the second coming.

My dad is laughing right now about that.

Here’s my point — this whole idea that a second coming — or that Jesus is returning is related to our work. In a number of interviews, we’ve “brought Jesus back” because we demonstrated that Jesus never left.


So the idea that Jesus is returning is not correct, it’s that people will realize that he’s never left, is that correct?

(A long pause). Yes. (Jennifer aside:) I asked about the bad stuff. and suddenly I got an image of Saddam Hussein — who has not been in my mind for years; hear me out, (before I can protest that one man’s villain is another man’s hero) but that bad stuff is already happening… that’s what I’m being shown, and that’s forcing people to open their hearts to this, that’s part of the “second coming,” as you’ve said.

The reason I asked it this way — is because I want the scientists (in our class) to look at this, and Jesus and Jim to look at this all as one piece. It has nothing to do with biblical references, that’s all metaphor — it’s pointing to something, but it is metaphorical. I’m referring to people feeling as if Jesus was returning as we know he’s not the only avatar in the game.

Correct. And I’m being shown that there is a big avatar soul group — he just showed me that. I asked “What’s the difference between you and the rest of the humans?” and he showed me that he’s aware of every avatar in his soul group.

So if someone is aware of who they were on the flipside…

Then everything (pain and suffering) starts dissipating, then your energy field doesn’t make you sick; your body can recoup (through this knowledge.)

The reason I ask this is because it’s like a lightning bolt. The idea that there is a “second coming,” but if the second coming is a revelation that he never left or that we can be conscious of all of our loved ones who passed away — including but not limited to…


And Mary, and everyone. Sorry I didn’t mean to shift away from you Stephen.

Carl Sagan just came in.

What do you want to say Carl? This is the scientist who created the music CD that traveled into deep space with Chuck Berry on it.

He’s saying “With what I do for my work, music does the same thing by being in a certain lane, like in my work.” He showed me music puts people in that lane, music is like a frequency going up and up.

I’ve come to the realization music is identical to quantum mechanics and appears to retain the memory of the moment; so the frequency of the music also retains your experience of hearing the music. When you listen to Beethoven’s 9th you’re accessing all the other performances simultaneously.

And that’s related to the disk (Sagan sent into space). The Akashic memory of that event.

Carl I need your help there is a scientist named Mino. He’s from Japan. He was a scientist, he died and his mom wrote books about him.

When I first see is a tree in Africa or Asia, there’s a huge tree that I’m seeing… then I saw that scientist with the apple… (Newton) It has to do with time and space going back and forth?

I don’t know his work; it could be about time and space. Let’s ask. (He was a physicist).

Let me get this first. So you can pick an apple, the tree holds all the memories; what’ I’m picking up — he’s showing me one tree from two different time periods, when we are there, if we allow ourselves, we can pick up all the energy from that particular tree in that time frame, or from all the time frames.

What was Mino’s work on the planet?

He says it was something like string theory… (Ding!). He showed me a violin… he also showed me… the guy who wrote about string theory.

Is that research important to you now?

Yes, because it leaps them into it. They go out of their mind and into it.

Is it related to time?

That there is no time. We can create everything; it’s already out there, we’re creating it by bringing it in — hold on. Some people don’t know they can create it, they just go and let things happen, like working on a project; you have to do it and can’t expect it to be done (to get the result.)

So what kind of work do you want people to carry on?

Mind focus, it feels like he’s saying.

Anything specific related to my wife who asked about you?

He showed me her heart. She has a beautiful heart. Have her focus on where she wants to be as if its happening now. If she’s in a stressful place or if she’s in a space where she’s stressed, have her jump out of it.

Focus on what it should be like and have her turn into that?


What’s her relation to the Pleiades?

I’m related to the Pleiades to. (Jennifer listens). She’s part of the 7 daughters; she’s like the oldest daughter.

You mean relating to the Greek myth? Or are you talking about actual daughters?

I don’t know either.

So she had a lifetime in the Pleiades?


Is she visited by her friends from there?


Anything she needs to know or what’s she passing along to them?

Where earth is right now; they’re trying to figure it out but she’s so light…. — so lighthearted, everything is like nails on a chalkboard to her… They’re trying to figure out if they need to come down here.

How many lifetimes has she had over there?

Feels like one that was a thousand years.

Has Jennifer had any lifetimes there?


I’ve met some other Pleiadeans — I’ve heard there’s going to be a shift in consciousness in relation to what they’re doing… is that the work she’s doing in her sleep?

Yes. They want to help us save the planet.

Are they going to?

Yes, they have to. They’re checking to see if the vibration here is getting better. They want to know how they’re going to acclimate.

It is getting better isn’t it?

Yes it is.


From a recent podcast with Jennifer Shaffer regarding Carl Sagan:

We interviewed Carl for the book “Backstage Pass to the Flipside 3” — Carl makes a return visit to our class to discuss a number of things he wanted to cover — like global warming, whether aliens exist, how to step away from fossil fuel and into a safer alternative. This podcast is not for everyone, nor should it be. If one is not aware of the possibility of an afterlife, then this will not make any sense. However for those that are, he makes perfect sense. Jennifer and I have been meeting weekly for seven years. Excerpts, transcripts from our filmed chats can be found in the books “Backstage Pass to the Flipside” books 1, 2 or 3, also in the book “Tuning Into the Afterlife.”


From the Podcast Hacking The Afterlife (audio at video at is a medium who works with law enforcement agencies nationwide on missing person cases. We’ve been meeting and filming weekly for seven years. The podcast began because of the pandemic — this is an early episode.

From podcast

RICH: So I have my podcast backdrop, which is a photograph of deep space. My “space” backdrop is in honor of our guest today, which is kind of a hint. But you know, if anybody has paid any attention to what you and I do, I don’t have to give you any hints.

JENNIFER SHAFFER: I’m not going to know.. but outer space? I don’t have any clue whatsoever.

The fellow that I thought we’d chat with today showed up last night in a dream. He was having a conversation with me — I was half awake and half asleep. And my conscious mind was saying, “Am I really talking to this person?” I’ll tell you, it’s somebody that we talked to before.

Is it Buzz Lightyear?

(Laughs) Yes, no.

Who’s that astronaut?

Buzz Aldrin. That’s funny. Well, he’s still on the planet. But related, related; let me put it this way. We’ve interviewed this fellow. He’s in a chapter in Backstage Pass three. He’s one of our group of super smart people that we invited.

The first thing that I got was, you know, I always put him in the wheelchair. But I know it’s not him. (Stephen Hawking).

But this image leads to him. I knew that that would happen and so I was looking for that.

Is his name Paul?

No, it’s Carl.

Carl Sagan.

Very good.

That’s so funny.

It’s like, “Paul Sagan” right? But listen, for those people tuning in for the first time. You looked at the book, if you read anything that Jennifer and I have done, we’ve been doing this for a long time. And sometimes I think of a person or say his name out loud. And then I show up at her office. And she says, “so and so is here” and it’s the person I invited. But in this case, I knew that Stephen Hawking would escort Carl Sagan into our conversation.

Funny, that’s funny that you knew Stephen Hawking would do that.

I mean, they do have a connection to each other, which I wasn’t aware of until this morning. So here’s what happened last night. I’m talking to Carl Sagan, in my mind’s eye, and I’m doubtful, dubious.

I said, “So. If this is really you, I need you to give me some detail about your life that I can look up and find out to be accurate.” He said, “I’m from Ukraine.” So this morning, I got up and I started looking up his life story. And it turns out his father was born in Ukraine. And when I saw that I went “I guess we’re talking to Carl today.” Let’s just skip down not it’s not about me. It’s about Carl. So Carl, for those who are not aware that we’ve already interviewed him, including Jennifer because she doesn’t remember anything we say, I’m going to ask him some questions. And one of the first is to ask Luana if this is okay, if he’s the person we should talk to?

She says, “Yes, they gave you the idea beforehand.”

And Carl, I got the impression that … I don’t know how else to put it. But you were saying, “I enjoy working with you.” I mean, you said it in that way. Something along the lines of “We could have a communication or a conversation, that will be helpful.”

And then, and just to show to share with you what I, like, with what comes through when you talk about the conversations, I just saw all the trees like helping the planet again. So they’re giving you they’re giving, you know, you’re talking but I’m getting visuals from them.

That’s great. You are getting the metaphor of why it’s important for us to talk about this, to access to people who used to be on the planet who can help the planet, including somebody who loved the planet dearly. Carl Sagan, the pale blue dot, that was his idea, the movie Contact was his idea. Quite a few other things. But I’d like to get into it with you, Carl, hope you don’t mind.

I had no idea.

But the whole reason why I didn’t mention an astronaut was because yesterday, you know, due to the almost launch at NASA, maybe it’s related. Carl, why did you show up last night?

He says, “You opened up last night.” So I don’t know what you did differently. But he’s just saying “You opened up and maybe that had something to do with it. Because all it was always… the launch was on everybody’s mind yesterday.

Okay, there’s very few that everybody pays attention to, what I’m saying Carl did work for NASA, and was an advisor for them quite a bit. And he was very helpful.

I did not know that.

Yeah. And, of course, in preparation for this morning. I mean, it’s ridiculous. I’m just a filmmaker. But I spent, you know, a couple hours reading as best as I could as much as I could about Carl, so I can ask him some questions that are relevant and are about me.

So Carl, I’m going to ask you some of the standard questions that I normally ask people, but let me ask you this. Jennifer, what’s it look like in your mind’s eye?

His hair is a little bit like, I don’t know, it’s really short and it almost feels like it’s buzzed a little bit. Spikey. Almost bald. I don’t know what age he was showing me. I’m not sure. He’s wearing jeans. And like a polo shirt of some sort.

Okay. I know later in life, I mean, who only passed away at a young pretty relatively young age.

Was it 1969?

Close. He died at 62 in 1996.

I’m not going to make that fit — But it felt like in the sixties, I just never thought early sixties. That’s

But the point being I think he had cancer late in life. It’s an unusual form of cancer. So he might have been bald or had no hair at some point. Because of chemo. I don’t know.

I don’t think I’ve seen a picture.

Listen, he’s presenting himself as he wants to present himself. So let’s allow that whatever. You know, it might be related to going up to outer space. I don’t know. I’m going to ask you some questions. Carl and Luana. Hello. Thank you for inviting Carl and making this a place for him to share freely with us. Who was there to greet you when you crossed over?

It’s fascinating. Um he can come by anytime, she says “She likes having him around.” Hold on a second; he says, “His grandfather.”

Was that the on your mother’s side or on your father’s side?

Mother’s side. I have a thirty percent chance of being right. I felt like he didn’t know one of them before.

I think he was named after a grandmother he never met.

He says, “Yeah.”

So what was that like? When you when you first greeted her, she greeted you what was that experience like? Did that happen right away? Or did it take some time for that to happen?

They came together, both of them, the grandmother and grandfather. Um. Yeah, it took some time. He says that he had a lot of people… he said somebody just grabbed his hand and he started flying.

In our prior interview, we talked about this, a feeling of sort of wandering different realms.

That’s what he said. He’s showing me a different visual of flying — wandering could be before that.

But my question to you would be, at what point did you realize that you’re in the afterlife?

He said “It was before. Before he crossed over.” He said he “was floating above his body.”

This is one of those topics that people talk about — their belief systems, people point to Carl as being an atheist or agnostic… He’s quoted as saying he believed that the God of Einstein really was the whole idea of the universe of natural elements itself, not a physical person with a beard. So, when he passed, people said, “Did he come to religion? Did he start believing God?” I’m not interested in that. Because we’ve had many people talk about this.

They’re just laughing about that. “Religion has its purpose. But there,” — he’s kind of laughing about it — “because out of all the questions that could be asked, that’s the one they ask!” I know you’re not asking that. “That’s what they focus on,” he said, “I would have never said anything.”

Well, let me ask you this, Carl, let’s just put this to rest is the story as it’s been told to humans, in various scriptures through all the various religions — is that accurate?

(Shakes her head) He’s showing me “There’s like a thread.”

You shook your head, does that mean no?

He said “No,” but he’s also showing me that there’s a thread of underlying principles or underlying truths in all religions.

That’s important to say.

I’m doing the best I can, because I’m interpreting something that I think is pretty big. So I’ll share with you what he’s showing me. He showed me this little thread. And then he says, “What was compounded on it was the patriarchs — they’re able to twist (observation) just like me. I can interpret things in a different way. And so they took it, and they put certain words — he showed me like words — that they built a story around.

Like scripture is metaphor?

He says, “Yes, yes, yes!”

So, the Bible is metaphor. Bhagavad Gita also metaphor?

He says, “Yes.”

The Qu’ran also metaphor, but the underlying string or truth is “unconditional love.” We’ve heard this time and again, that “love is an engine of the universe.” As a scientific term, consciousness, unconditional love is the thread that pulls us all together and keeps us all in the same way?

(Jennifer aside) I also feel that… when someone interrogates us, I think it’s ourselves interrogating ourselves. (Asking) “Did you love well, or did you love passionately?” You know, I think that’s gonna be one of the biggest questions.

It’s a great point, love, passionately or love well, as opposed to just existing in a state of love. Home. Love, it’s not just existing in love, which is a great thing to exist in, no question about it, but it’s to share it. Turn the key. Release the love, give it to other people. That’s part of the journey.

(Jennifer aside) And that’s also true for Jesus who didn’t fight people, he loved them.

It sounds like a thing of spirituality. But Carl, I want to quote you. Spirit comes from Latin to breathe. Spiros spirare — pneuma is Greek to breathe. And so when the Bible was talking about consciousness, breathing, going from a brick to something that’s alive, they used the word Spiros or Pneuma, or spirit. So Carl’s point is that spirituality isn’t that far away from science, we’re talking about consciousness and how it functions. You know, I don’t want to get too far astray. Because I do want to talk to you about your experience Carl, which is once you got back there, you your life was very unusual in the sense that you were always an optimistic scientist, you’re always somebody who took things apart, you examined things,

(Jennifer aside) You (Richard) unpack it like you do with unpacking things.

And there was a wonderful moment in your life Carl, when you went to the World’s Fair and you saw a time capsule. That inspired you, as you’re the guy who created the time capsule for the Pioneer spacecraft and the Voyager spacecraft, you helped craft the Arecibo message which went into deep space. And it was the idea, the optimism that other people exist on those billions upon billions of planets that are out there. Okay. The question is; “Have you met any?”

He says, “Yes, absolutely.”

So would you please describe whom you’ve met?

What he showed me was, that when he was here, they would come to him.

In dreams or something? Was he aware of these visitations?

He says, “No.” (Not consciously)

But when you got to the flipside, when your consciousness returned to the Carl Sagan consciousness of who you are, and you saw why you chose your lifetime, were you able to see that in various points in your life? How ETS or aliens had, which is a weird word to use because we’re all incarnated beings. We’re all aliens. They had shown up at various points in your lifetime. And what did they look like?

They were lights.. he just showed me all these different lights that is in your background (photo of deep space). And he just knew what “lights were who” (or what being.)

Okay, have you gone to visit any of these other cultures? Other planets?

He says, “All of them.”

Would you show Jennifer one please? Could you give her put in her mind’s eye?

I’m seeing the North Star, something dealing with the North Star.

Okay, let’s just call it we’ll just say that somewhere near the North Star galaxy or a planet?


(Note: Polaris is 323 light years away, a “triple star system” in the Milky Way. “(the system is) known to contain two other stars in addition to the Cepheid stars, but there may be yet another unseen object orbiting Polaris … a massive orbiting planet for example.” ( It could be “in that direction” — when showing Jennifer an object it could mean “in this direction” or nearby.)

Describe what it looks like on the terrain of this one particular planet that you’re going to show Jennifer?

He showed me Subaru and the Pleiades.

Subaru being Japanese word for the Seven Sisters. In this research, we’ve talked to Pleiadeans before and I think Jennifer might have as well.

(Jennifer aside) I’m not thinking of it.

Carl, are you saying you’ve been there to visit people as well?

He says, “He’s been, he’s seen all of the systems that have us connected. So like the sun, like the different, the different systems… — that are connected to our system.” But then he showed me dark matter.

(Note: For our previous discussion of “dark matter” see above.)

Well before we get to dark matter, Carl, we did discuss this in the book. So if people want discussion of dark matter, they gotta go to the book Backstage Pass to the Flipside 3.” Let’s just discuss these other cultures and how they’re all connected. Do you mean they’re connected because they’re similar to Earthlings? Or are their frequencies the same as ours?

It’s interesting because he’s saying “They are us elsewhere.” I just saw, you know how you sleep and you go somewhere?


(Corrects her) “That’s not where we go,” he said… (Jennifer laughs) That was my (incorrect) interpretation.

No, that’s great. Thank you, Carl.

He said, “They are not similar, but they are dependent on us.” And I’m not sure what he means by that.

Carl, do you mean “they exist because of us — because of our consciousness?” And if we wouldn’t perceive them, if we would not be aware of them, they wouldn’t? Like it’s a two way street between observer and object, is that what you mean?

He says, “Yes, yes.” (Jennifer aside) How did you know that?

I’m just following what he’s saying, which is that they that their existence, or our awareness of their existence is dependent upon our ability to be aware of their existence. Right now, in this conscious mind, I can’t be aware of them. But you can Jennifer, because your filters are different. And you’re able to extrapolate these images that he’s able to generate, like a receiver into your mind, it’s almost like…

He’s showing Me as a big radio tower. “An antenna.”

Yeah, like an antenna, like picking up these signals, and translating it into this thing we call language. So Carl, going to all these different places and seeing other beings and realizing the nature of the universe and how these things work…. Describe what that felt like to you when you experienced them?

He said, “Home.”

(Note: Using the word “home” is often reported in the 100’s of hours of footage of people accessing the afterlife, previous lifetimes, in the dozens of sessions of guided meditation with people accessing the same information — all of them use the same term to describe the afterlife. “Home.” As in — “a place of unconditional love, familiarity and where we return.”)

What does home mean? Please, if you don’t mind defining it a little bit for us in our audience.

That he wasn’t crazy, that he wasn’t crazy with all that, almost similar to what we have done in our work here. (He appears to be answering “what did that mean to you?) You and I, and many other Lightworkers or however you want to categorize them… It just it felt like “home” to him. And like that everything that he — I know you said he was atheist, but “Everything that he believed in, there was such a bigger version of it.”

Let’s just say that from a very early age, he suspected this to be the case, and was really a predominant person who got science to look out into outer space to look for people. Because most scientists were saying “they don’t exist.”

He says “There are life forms everywhere.” He showed me like, so many platforms.

Let me ask you about that. Carl, you express a little bit of pessimism, about the future of our planet in your last book.

He says, “It’s even better over there than on our planet.”

The last book of yours, “Dragons of Eden” there was a really a note of pessimism about the Earth, sort of devolving back into the dark ages because of its lack of science, that, you know, they were eventually going to be following leaders who lead us off the abyss.

He just laughed because “Look at how long it’s taken us to send more people to space.”

I want to ask your opinion about the planet. Okay, is it hopeful or pessimistic?

He’s looking at Luana.

(Note: Luana Anders, our moderator on the flipside. My companion for 20 years, after she passed, she inspired me to write “Flipside.” She works the same way Jennifer does, but “over there” helping people on the flipside to communicate to their pals on this side.) (photo by author)

What does that mean? Luana, you want to weigh in?

He says, “It’s not pessimistic (but) that you’re using an interesting choice of words.” He said “We were so far (buried) in the ground that we can’t get our… we’re gonna have a very challenging time getting ourselves out of it.”

But we can have conversations like this that can help us?

And (now) he goes back to the trees in the rain forest…

The more we talked to people like you off planet, the more we can help the planet?

He just showed me something very interesting. When he showed me the tree, he showed me a tree here being cut down — the tree is not surviving somewhere else. And then he showed me like what they said about the atoms in Antarctica when they said they found some different life forms?

They said “they found a universe going backwards in time.”

So all of this came through when he was showing me… he’s trying to express…

Interdependence? Is that what he’s talking about?

He says, “Yes. Interdependence.”

(Note: I have no idea what it means. It popped into my head, but as I transcribe this, I know I’ve never used the term in a sentence before.)

So trees, dying or being killed and cut down takes away oxygen from us. So we can’t breathe, which also is like the cycle of destroying our planet. And we can undo the cycle by planting trees. We’ve heard this, plant a trillion trees more than once. Is that correct, Carl?

He says, “We can’t destroy other planets. But what if we can help other planets by doing what we do by helping ourselves.”

Okay. And in terms of black holes, now, you wrote the introduction to A Brief History of Time for your pal, Stephen Hawking. We’ve asked Stephen about black holes before and I know specifically I asked him if they were portals. And he said, “not in the way you think of portals.”

He said, “Yes.”

I understood what he meant is like things go through energy goes through and it transformed to become something else. So it’s not like a portal.

“It collects trash,” he says.

Well, planets and beings that are on those planets go into a black hole. They become trash, and then they move into the next realm and become something else. Is that correct Carl? Clarify.

He shows me a tree and toilet paper being reused for something else, you know? Recycling. Yes.

So black holes are recycling centers. Is that correct? Not to simplify it, but let’s…

He says, “Yeah, kind of.” Recycling centers.

Okay. One way to look at it. You know, we tear down trees…

(Jennifer aside) I sure hope I’m not miss-interpreting this.

He won’t mind. He can come back and correct us later. So you had a couple of critics in your lifetime.

He says, “A ton.”

One guy in particular, his name was Harold Urey. He’s on the flipside now.

(Note: “The fact that Harold Urey was jealous of Carl Sagan speaks volumes. Urey may have got the Nobel prize for the discovery of deuterium but his Miller Urey experiment was a pitiful attempt at exploring organic space that set the entire field on the wrong trajectory.” Recent tweet by Prof. Lee Cronin)

Have you run into this critic of yours? Jennifer wouldn’t know who he is. But you would.

She laughs. He says, “He died before him. Correct?”

Yeah. That is correct. (Died in 1981).

And he says that because “He was there when he died.”

Like, what was that reunion like? Did he apologize?

He says, “They just laughed. They tried so hard to prove each other’s points. They lost themselves.”

(Note: Take a moment to reflect that there’s no possible way Jennifer could have known this about them.)

That’s funny. That’s true. You were a great critic of a philosopher Plato. Have you run into him since you’ve been back there?

(Jennifer laughs) He says, “Plato doesn’t exist.” Then he says, “I was his critic because I…” It’s almost like he was there with Plato.

Sounds like Carl recall a lifetime where he knew him? Is that true, Carl?

He says, “Yes.”

You lived in Greece or in Athens in that time period?

He says, “And he was his nemesis then.”

That’s hilarious. Jennifer doesn’t remember we had a conversation with Socrates, I asked if the story that Plato told about Socrates death accurate? And Socrates came through and said, “It was bullshit. Plato made it up. They poisoned me, but that whole speech I supposedly gave never happened.” Is that true, Carl?

“Yes, it’s true,” he says.

I love asking questions where I can get Jennifer to go. “Yes!”

(Jennifer aside) Well, I’m not going to say no, if he’s not saying no! I’m just responding! If I got the feeling of no, I’d say it. And sometimes that happens, but I listen.

I know. But I think they’re putting the dang questions in my head. I think that’s just too dang funny. I think you had five kids, Carl. I wanted to quote one of your sons, Dorian who said “My father believed in the God of Spinoza. (Note: Spinoza believed that God is “the sum of the natural and physical laws of the universe and certainly not an individual entity or creator”) And Einstein. “God, not behind nature, but as nature — equivalent to it.” Is there anything you want to add to that or clarify from your current perspective?

Say the last sentence again? Or the last part of it?

He said “God is not behind nature, like the creator of nature… But is nature or is as nature is equivalent to it — the same as?

He said, “Yes, yes.” But he showed me something else to… hold on. He said “He is the life force within all the energy.”

He said “God is the life force within all energy? But he used “he?” That’s the question Carl. It God the life force that’s in everything, is God a he?”

No, it’s a she. (Jennifer laughs.) I’m saying that.

Well it makes more sense.

He said, “We need (as humans) we need something tangible. And that’s the reason why,” — again, he just showed me the Bible — “with one word for the story being fed around the metaphors.” He says, “I am. So the I am — I am.” There is no he. I am part of God.

So if God isn’t behind nature, but is part of nature, therefore everything that is nature, or within the universe is God. Or consciousness?

(Jennifer aside) Are we killing God? He showed me the recycling plant. Showed me the recycling plant being (composed of) the black holes, like everything gets recycled.

If we can accept that allow that for a second and not get freaked out by it. You know, part of the problem is that people for thousands of years have been you know, tortured, murdered, made to kneel — may to obey — well some had epiphanies. But with regard to this doctrine, whatever religion it’s from, by and large people suffer under this illusion that we die and that’s the end.

I was looking this up the other day. Apparently one of the founders of the Christian church, guy name Origen was a proponent/believed in reincarnation, and used to teach it and preach it. And along comes this Emperor Justinian in the year 543. And he bans that — outlaws it — calls “reincarnation theory an anathema,” meaning you will die if you say, “We’re just like nature we get recycled, we come back.” So here we are arguing about something that 1500 hundred years ago some nutball came up with so he could control his world. It’s just so… but I digress.

What I’m being shown is “The more alive we can make nature, the more that we help nature; it helps our spirit. It helps the air, it helps the air we breathe, back to spirit… Breath being spirit.” Actually it’s so simple, but we’re so stupid when it comes to it.

Speaking of breathing, Carl, what would you advise in terms of cleaning up our environment so that we can get more oxygen, fresh air or fresh water or not to use fossil fuels? What are some avenues?

He says, “To plant as many trees as far as you can see.” That’s what he was showing. What are they doing in Germany?

Somebody figured out a way to plant trees with a drone. They put the seeds in the drone and the drone goes out somewhere and plants these seedlings. So you could have it working all the time.

Um… He says, “And that’s just the beginning — at the bottom (of what to do)” and then he says, “By not using fossil fuels an alternative or in moderation.”

We’ve talked to some of your colleagues, one of your colleagues suggested using water that apparently uranium is naturally occurring and water and it’s not radioactive. And apparently ocean water.

“In the ocean,” he says. I told my son Jack, “You’re gonna invent jet fuel from ocean water. You’ve got to figure this out. Because someone’s gonna do it.”

So Carl, how would we do that? How do we take seawater and turn it into fuel?

(Jennifer aside) I saw Israel, like a lake — I’m sorry, please forgive me. But like the saltiest sea water where nothing can live in it.

The Dead Sea. And there’s also Salt Lake City.

Yes. I saw the Dead Sea and then I felt Salt Lake City.

So those two waterways are just so much salt that things float there only float.

He said, “They’re perfect.”

Okay, and for using so just try to describe it to us. I know this is weird and complicated. But let’s take a gallon of saltwater from the Dead Sea. What do we do to it? Do we heat it up to we put it in a…?

Well he shows me like recycling plants or like they do this with? (spins her hands)


It’s almost like creating weather patterns with it. I can’t quite make it out. I’m sorry.

What are you seeing?

I saw a fan and then I saw clouds going up.

A fan. Okay. Like blades in a circle?

Lots of them. Yes.

Lots of fans. So are they blowing? Water? Are they blowing the air above the water?

They’re blowing it.

Is it evaporation?

He says, “Yes.”

Okay, thank you. This is how Jennifer and I work. So the fan represents evaporation. So to separate which would you do in a recycling factory? You put one thing with the other. So you separate the salt, sea water or the salt. Then after the fans…

He’s mentioning “liquid nitrogen.” He also mentioned “So — if you separate it,” he showed me these compounded like, compounded whatever-it-was.

(Note: In researching this later: “When nitrogen comes in contact with water, it will boil, producing nitrogen gas at a fast rate… Liquid nitrogen… boils immediately on contact with a warmer object, enveloping the object in an insulating layer of nitrogen gas bubbles. This effect occurs when any liquid comes in contact with a surface which is significantly hotter than its boiling point.” (Wiki) He appears to be talking about creating energy by use of liquid nitrogen’s abilityh to change temperatures.)

Is this related to “Heavy water?”

He says, “Yes.”

I know what that is. Okay. Is that what he’s talking about? Let’s ask Carl. Do you mean heavy water?

He says, “It’s not exactly but the closest to it. Yes. He’s showing me something I feel like there’s something that it’s almost like heating something up in a microwave, but it’s not a microwave. I have no idea what he’s referring to… he’s showing me something that is compounds with salt and everything else. Compounded.

(Note: Heavy water is a form of water that contains only deuterium rather than the common hydrogen-1 isotope (called protium) that makes up most of the hydrogen in normal water. The presence of the heavier hydrogen isotope gives the water different nuclear properties, and the increase of mass gives it slightly different physical and chemical properties when compared to normal water. (Wiki)

Let me just break it down. The microwave represents radiation? That’s what a microwave is. Carl worked on the atomic program or pieces of it back in his day when he was University Chicago/ I think what he’s talking about when he shows you a microwave, and when I asked about heavy water, heavy water is radioactive water, and it’s what they were working on to build the first atomic weapon. The idea of using …somehow… water to create energy, is that correct, Carl?

It’s something similar to that. But he’s saying take… just like you said, taking all the nutrients and everything you can grasp out of the saltwater — out of the saltiest water. And then it’s combining or something, but I don’t know if we have it just yet. I don’t know if it’s there.

That’s okay. Well, we’ll find out from them what it is, and then invest in it. Right?

(Jennifer laughs.) Right. What’s interesting is my great uncle William, was in charge of doing the physics for the detonations on the atomic bomb. It’s always been fascinating to me.

We’ve talked to our buddy Albert Einstein in the past, we’ve talked to some of these other physicists. And the point is, yes, nuclear weapons are bad. However, the concept behind them is good. Is finding a way to create energy out of natural elements. So the idea is using water for energy rather than uranium?

“Yes, because then you’re not polluting the Earth.”

Thank you Carl.

He says, “It’s a type of recycling.”

(Note: In looking up how salt water can be used for energy, there are many observations about how salt in the oceans affects the climate. “Deliberately exposing large volumes of air to water containing potassium ions (similar to salt water) can effectively capture CO₂ very cost-effectively. This could be done wherever power is cheap and there is somewhere to store the CO₂.” (from

Carl, are you making any plans to come back soon?

Oh, there’s a part of him here already. He said.

The plot thins. Is it any relation to you? This part of him that’s still here? That’s already returned.

(To Carl) I don’t believe you. He says, “Yes.” He kept showing me that 13 year old kid who has…

Hang on; if we identify the kid, it becomes problematic. He’s showing you someone that could be him, or could represent someone like him. You know I don’t like to censor you. I just don’t want somebody who’s out there listening in to take this in a way that they need to hunt down. Carl, to clarify, when people come back, they’re only bringing a portion of who they are. It’s not a one to one. It’s not like they leave it over there and then show up here and then that’s loved one is a portion of their energy in it.

“It is a portion,” he says.

We’ve talked to people and the general consensus is about thirty percent.

“You’re absolutely right.” But I have to say before it goes away. I asked him if he had a final thoughts? He said, “Love.” Then he showed me “If you love the trees and the planet, then you’re gonna do something about it. If you love animals, you’re gonna do something about them.” And I asked him, “So then do you have to love people?” He started laughing and made this gesture like “meh.” He’s saying it’s like this: “That loving well, is if you love the planet.” Like William Blake wrote “If you teach kids not to hurt little bugs and insects, they don’t become axe murderers later on.” If you teach love, so “loving well” means loving all. If you love something so much that you’re willing to help it. I think that’s an important point.

Carl, I want to ask you a couple other questions, the movie “Contact,” was based on your book? Was that an experience you had?

He said, “Yes.” That’s what he showed me. It was mainly what occurred in his asleep. He said, “But time does not exist. So past present future; (are the) same.”

Well, arguably, time exists, just relatively different. We wouldn’t learn anything if time didn’t exist in a linear fashion.

He says, “Well, no, but it’s not linear.”

I’m just saying on the flipside the experience of time, as we’ve heard from many people, feels like it’s all simultaneous. But when you think of your own lifetimes, each one is lived in a linear fashion so that you can learn… my question to you Carl, part of who you are as a person and your journey was planned; who you were going to be?

He says, “Yes.”

What should people take away from your lifetime — to learn that we’re all aliens or to learn that people exist on other planets?

“To be… to learn to be open to the possibilities that they do exist.” He just showed me like Harry Dean Stanton. How people focus on the fact they didn’t believe in God or whatever. He’s saying, “Just be open to the possibility that it (an afterlife) exists.”

Yeah, that was our Harry Dean Stanton quote.

And so funny, because, in terms of Carl’s lifetime, he says… “His purpose was to open up (the concept) because think of all the movies that have been done because of it. If you think about it.

It’s a whole different take.” He’s saying “Let’s say that we’re not aliens. But yet trees are aliens. Cats, animals, dogs. We just think that they’re animals, cats and dogs but they’re all different life forms.” He’s saying “Just think of it this way; everything’s a different life form.”

Not that we’re all aliens. But we’re all sentient life forms, trees, cats, dogs, animals?

He says, “It’s alien to you.”

They discovered yesterday that dogs can smell the Coronavirus on people.

He said, “Yes they can. They can smell cancer, anything.”

It would be silly for me not ask any advice you give us in this weird pandemic we’re involved in?

The first thing he showed me, was, “Just sleep and rest. That’s the way to defend yourself. Instead of being so anxious, wasting so much energy on the thought process of it.” He’s like, “It’ll come and it’ll go. And then will come again.”

Which is the nature of existence, I guess.

He says, “But not War. It’s just a different type of war.”

Somebody reached out to me about my mom’s quote from last week (about the pandemic.) You know, “Suck it up. We survived World War II.”

“Suck it up.”

But we have 100 thousand people from the United States alone who had to go to the flipside due to this pandemic, and their families, of course are thinking about them. And if they could still exist, and of course, we’d love to chat with them all… just to show that they do still exist that they … they’re courageous to live a lifetime in this era with that outcome. So we honor them by talking about them in present tense and relating to them.

I think that’s our job to talk to them. I think it’s art. However, I don’t believe everything happens for a reason, because I don’t think my dad died for a reason. But I… (listens) stop it.

What? Let’s ask your dad — Jim, you must have met Carl, you’re part of our class. What do you want to say? Jennifer’s dad who also has been studying astrophysics on the flipside.

Okay, hold on a second. (laughs, listens) What reason was it then? Aw. Um. (Emotional). My dad said, “He did die that way for a reason… from cancer — because it allowed us to all say goodbye, when his body was giving out. If he had died from a heart attack, it would have been more traumatizing. We wouldn’t have all been able to spend the two months we had with him.”

Jim, thank you for sharing that. I know that was on her mind. But Jim my one last question for you “What could we tell the people listening in who are suffering from grief and loss of their loved ones”? (Jennifer laughs) He’s making you laugh?

He just took my hands and started spinning me around like a little kid, you know, “you spin it.” And then he said “Just remember the love.” Again, it goes back to love, he’s saying “know that we’re always here.” And he feels so fortunate he can talk to me. He said, “If you open up your heart to speaking with them on the other side, the grief lessens.” (Jennifer aside) I don’t know if that’s true, because I’m crying over what he just said.

I’m sorry to cause any stress for your daughter.

“You didn’t.”

We did ask Jim to help us with this concept of grief. And he said, try to move grief to nostalgia. And it relates to what he just said. And he said he just said it again; “We’re always connected. I’m always with you. I haven’t gone anywhere.” So that loss we feel is related to us and our experience and how we navigate the planet. Because if we close our eyes, they’re there… just over your shoulder. Carl Sagan who died in 1996, is here to tell us that he’s still here. Luana, my pal who died the same year. Welcome to the club. Carl’s here. Thanks for showing up last night. I appreciate it. Very unusual conversation you’re now part of our class. I hope that other people do the same thing we’re doing to access you, ask you questions, see if they get different answers.

Oh, so funny. He just showed me that common thread again, like with us… we are the thread.

And don’t forget to name the device they use to make to energy after Jennifer and me. Schaffer-Martini Gizmo. All right class, we’ll catch you on the flipside. (Here’s a link to the original conversation:) is a good place to begin a conversation with the flipside.


So, can I walk away with my skepticism? My doubt? My disbelief? That’s fine. That’s a choice.

But we have contacted Carl Sagan on the Flipside. Not with an ET’s or alien per se, but to realize we are all conscious entities, all bring a portion of our conscious energy to a lifetime, and the bulk that remains home can be queried, questioned, can be asked to provide new information.

My suggestion is self-experiment. Set aside prejudices, cemented beliefs — allow for the possibility that our loved ones exist on some level we might not understand… that’s key. Allow that it’s possible. Do a simple exercise. Take out a photo, say their name. Pretend that you can ask them to sit opposite you. Take ten minutes to recall their voice, how they looked, their smile. Pretend you can feel hands, how soft or hard they are. Ask them to nod, shrug or shake their head to respond. Then ask “Who greeted you on the other side?” Don’t judge the reply. Ask more questions you couldn’t know the answers to. When you get a response (often visual) BEFORE you can ask the next question you’ll know you’ve made contact. Tell them I said hello.

Richard Martini

Bestselling author (Kindle in its genre) FLIPSIDE, HACKING THE AFTERLIFE, IT’S A WONDERFUL AFTERLIFE, TUNING INTO THE AFTERLIFE. for links or to make a donation.

Documentaries include FLIPSIDE and HACKING THE AFTERLIFE (on Amazon).

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